An Experience at Chopsticks

[Bartleby]

A couple weeks back I got deathly ill from what appeared to be classic Salmonella after eating a sit-down Chicken Curry meal at the ChopStix in Alto.

As one lady put it, "I thought I was going to die." describing her experience with food poisoning. I've had food poisoning before but nothing of the severity of this.

Talked to a guy at Value Motors, he said he had heard that other people had gotten sick there. You've now been warned.

 

[Bonnie]

This is a serious accusation based on "what appeared to be" Salmonella poisoning and idle chatter with another person. Such assertions made in a public forum also are actionable under Panama's calumnia y injuria law.

[Keith Woolford]

a few questions:

Anyone else in your party get sick?

Was everybody eating chicken?

Did you report your experience to the restaurant?

Did you report it to the Ministry of Health?

Do you think  "a guy I talked to who heard other people had gotten sick there"  is good information worth sharing in a public forum?

thanks

 

[Jim and Judi]

How did you decide on the salmonella diagnosis, rather than norovirus, E coli or  listeria? Did you have a stool sample tested? Salmonella typically is asymptomatic. So if your claim is that a number of people became ill, it was most likely not salmonella. And if you had contracted norovirus, for example, the incubation period would be 12-48 hours, meaning your becoming ill after your meal is just coincidence.

If you we're not diagnosed by a physician with salmonella, this is a pretty iresponsible post. In fact, the responsibility was on you to get yourself to a doctor in order to confirm your diagnosis and protect the public from a potential health hazard. By not doing so, you may have put others in danger and/or have slandered someone in error.

Edited March 21, 2018 by Jim and Judi

[Pat]

Do you have documented proof (Ministry of Health and a physician) regarding your accusation made on a public forum in Panama?

Bonnie is correct. Please read her posting. Slander is serious in this country.

[TwoSailors]

• 11 hours ago, Bartleby said:

  couple weeks back I got deathly ill from what appeared to be classic Salmonella after eating a sit-down Chicken Curry meal at the ChopStix in Alto.

  You state it appeared to be Salmonella without actually knowing and then you slam and blame the restaurant without taking more action on your part to confirm this. Sad for you!

[Palo Alto Jo]

Just curious how long after you ate until you got "deathly ill".  Do you know what the "Classic Salmonella" incubation rate period is?  It's generallly 2-72 hours, but could be up to 6 weeks....  To be accurately identified the actually food should be cultured in the lab...  I have a feeling you ate from lots and lots of sources during a 6 week period.  Why pick on the last place you ate?   Do you know it could be Shigella?  Or Campylobacter?   The symptoms from those 2 are more severe than Salmonella.   Was there blood in your stools?   Hot food is very, very unlikely to be the culprit, it is much more likely in unwashed vegetables/fruits.  Undercooked meat yes, but otherwise proper cooking kills most pathogens.  I think perhaps you should share your SYMPTOMS here, rather than just your "feelings" on what you have. And never  point to "who" or "where" in a public forum, as this can get you into huge legal jeopardy.  I suggest you take the time in this same forum to "unpoint" your finger and possibly undo some damages.   A trip to a physician/lab would have helped all of us. I feel so badly for any restaurant to be blamed based on mere assumptions.   People often invest their life savings into their restaurants and have a right to not be devastated over some wild guessing. 

[Steve Mainero]

I agree with the majority of these responses. Your accusation is slanderous. You have no proof that 1) it was salmonella and 2) you acquired it at ChopSticks. Your accusation about "the guy at Value Motors" continues to exhibit your irresponsibility.  Your posting is far from a warning. It does potential damage to a very good restaurant whose hygiene is beyond most restaurants in Boquete and whose food ingredients are carefully screened. Your irresponsible rants are a discredit to the expat community and do potential damage to a business that is new and has been well received. Your comments and actions belong back in the country from which you came!

[Bartleby]

I invite each and every one of you to go eat there. I am not a medical expert but 9 hours later I had a stomach full of their chicken that was causing great pain and could only come out the way it went it over the course of 4 to 5 hours. Just relating my experience, and as they say in Chicago, "I'm happy ya's all."

[Jim and Judi]

2 minutes ago, Bartleby said:

I invite each and every one of you to go eat there. I am not a medical expert but 9 hours later I had a stomach full of their chicken that was causing great pain and could only come out the way it went it over the course of 4 to 5 hours. Just relating my experience, and as they say in Chicago, "I'm happy ya's all."

9 hours doesn't mean it came from chopsticks. Whether or not you had chicken in your stomach has nothing to do with it. A virus, like norovirus, could have been in your gut for two days just waiting to explode. It's THE MOST common gastrointestinal disease and most likely what you had and you'll never know where you got it at this point.

I really think this post should be deleted. It's irresponsible and potentially harming to the restaurant.

[Bartleby]

I am responsible enough to issue a warning about my experience. Mr. Steve. How do you know about their hygiene unless you have a vested interest in the establishment ? Have you just decided to walk into their kitchen and do an inspection. You made certain that they didn't use the same cutting board they had chopped the chicken on later without a profuse cleaning, right ?

I also invite you to get the hell out of Panama, I am staying.

[Jim and Judi]

1 minute ago, Bartleby said:

I am responsible enough to issue a warning about my experience. 

The problem is that you have no idea what you had or where you got it! You are being completely irresponsible blaming a business when you have no clue what the issue really was.

[Bartleby]

And I had a bit of discomfort when I left the restaurant. If that means it was not  exactly salmonella that is fine with me. It is only empirically-based speculation. If the post should be deleted I would have no problems with it - I did my job!

[Palo Alto Jo]

1 minute ago, Jim and Judi said:

9 hours doesn't mean it came from chopsticks. Whether or not you had chicken in your stomach has nothing to do with it. A virus, like norovirus, could have been in your gut for two days just waiting to explode. It's THE MOST common gastrointestinal disease and most likely what you had and you'll never know where you got it at this point.

I really think this post should be deleted. It's irresponsible and potentially harming to the restaurant.

I agree.  This is so irresponsible to blame the last place they ate.  The biggest Shigella outbreak in the U. S. was caused by raw lettuce, and that same lettuce was delivered to 5 different restaurants...  The CDC was able to figure out the source, but even they took days to do so, and certainly didn't just say "don't eat at "Tio's Taco Casa".  It is very, very unlikely that Chopstix WAS the culprit, if there is a culprit at all, because most if not all their items are served hot... It could have happened in these people's own kitchen for all they know.   

[Palo Alto Jo]

What????   You were feeling bad moments after you finished eating?   Now you REALLY,  REALLY owe the restaurant owners a HUGE apology and a retraction.  What you are saying means that they could not possibly, scientifically, absolutely, be the culprit.  They are the one place on the planet that is exempt!!!   You need to stop and remember where and what you ate 2-72 hours before.  IT WAS NOT POSSIBLE IT WAS ACQUIRED AT CHOPSTIX, no matter how much you "feel" it is.  Otherwise, you are a medical miracle, where in your stomach the bacteria was able to multiply to the level able to make you sick in only a few minutes.  It takes each bacteria 5 minutes or so to split, and it takes 100s of thousands in your gut to make you ill.  

Edited March 21, 2018 by Palo Alto Jo
TYPO

[Jim and Judi]

5 minutes ago, Bartleby said:

And I had a bit of discomfort when I left the restaurant. If that means it was not  exactly salmonella that is fine with me. It is only empirically-based speculation. If the post should be deleted I would have no problems with it - I did my job!

If you had discomfort on leaving the restaurant, your problem started elsewhere. Gastroenterotis does not become symptomatic so quickly. I'm not sure what you think you job is, but defaming a business based on uneducated supposition is pretty reckless.

[Bartleby]

What's irresponsible is claiming **I** put people in danger. How did someone come up with that ? It was an isolated case, but 99% cause-effect. Not well stated in the OP by me. The odds are overwhelming that there was something, anything wrong with my food that day. I wish people would stop deflecting the truth.

I like Chinese food. I had the same dish ( Curry Chicken ) in carry--out from them once before. No problem. I'm the one losing out by being forced to blacklist them now. My date had something entirely different and she did not get sick. I just related my experience and I am finished here.

 

[Jim and Judi]

You're wrong on this. I have spent years working in virology research and your experience doesn't pass muster, I'm afraid. The odds are overwhelmingly in favor of the restaurant, based on your testimony.

Edited March 21, 2018 by Jim and Judi

[Steve Mainero]

Bartelyby, you just don't get it or you do not understand the seriousness of your accusation. There is not a medical practitioner alive that would substantiate your "claim" of salmonella from a restaurant meal just eaten. Were you even diagnosed?  You only make yourself appear more irresponsible by continuing this.

The issue is that in my adopted country (of 6 years), we are more careful about making unsubstantiated claims.  Time will tell whether you stay in Panama (I will not take bets on it). 

[Bartleby]

Steve, I already explained that the OP was not well stated. I retract the salmonella Suggestion ( not a direct accusation ).

There is no doubt in my mind that the cause of my illness was food poisoning, which is not gastroenteritis (disease). One can barely move when their entire stomach cavity is in that kind of pain. I could only make it to the bathroom to throw up periodically. The incubation was 9-10 hours for the total shutdown. I had some bottled tea that had been sitting I noticed may have been a bit rancid, so no, I cannot be 100.00% certain of the causality of my distress. But close to it.

However, you seem to be the one making this a bit too personal for my tastes. It makes you look bad. In any case I am not asking you, I AM TELLING YOU to stay away from me and out of my business with your wild speculations. The problem with expat message boards I think is that many of us have too much time on our hands sometimes.

 

[Jim and Judi]

Bartleby, hopefully you will walk away from this with a desire to be a little more informed before you make these kinds of accusations. Yes, your symptoms could have been caused by coliform bacteria in tea or a myriad of other things, like touching a contaminated surface. 

Since you have acknowledged that you are not sure of the source of your illness this discussion should be deleted.

[Palo Alto Jo]

15 minutes ago, Bartleby said:

Steve, I already explained that the OP was not well stated. I retract the salmonella Suggestion ( not a direct accusation ).

There is no doubt in my mind that the cause of my illness was food poisoning, which is not gastroenteritis (disease). One can barely move when their entire stomach cavity is in that kind of pain. I could only make it to the bathroom to throw up periodically. The incubation was 9-10 hours for the total shutdown. I had some bottled tea that had been sitting I noticed may have been a bit rancid, so no, I cannot be 100.00% certain of the causality of my distress. But close to it.

However, you seem to be the one making this a bit too personal for my tastes. It makes you look bad. In any case I am not asking you, I AM TELLING YOU to stay away from me and out of my business with your wild speculations. The problem with expat message boards I think is that many of us have too much time on our hands sometimes.

 

I'm betting Steve can stick up for himself, but If I were you, I'd be grateful for the "learning" experience you found here.  Not only about food poisoning, but the legal jeopardy you were entering by continuing to insist it was caused by XXX restaurant.  No one wants to attack anyone personally, it is just that some "newbies" are not aware of the slander laws here. In some ways, we were all trying to protect YOU.   I know it may feel as if you were ganged up on, but I  feel we need to get the "no slandering in Panama" message out.  Even if it is a"true statement" in Panama, unlike in the U. S., you are not protected by being "right", you simply cannot publish negative things about a person or business here.  

[Pat]

I agree with the earlier post:  a person can not publish anything negative (rumor or accusation) that could cause potential damage to the reputation of an individual or a business here. Penalty for slander can be costly.

This information may be a learning experience for some people. Please don’t delete this discussion.

[TwoSailors]

Ok, Bud,

Time to shut this discussion down.

Thanks!

[Bartleby]

"... If I were you, I'd be grateful for the "learning" experience you found here.  Not only about food poisoning, but the legal jeopardy you were entering by continuing to insist it was caused by XXX restaurant.  No one wants to attack anyone personally, it is just that some "newbies" are not aware of the slander laws here. In some ways, we were all trying to protect YOU.   I know it may feel as if you were ganged up on, but I  feel we need to get the "no slandering in Panama" message out.  Even if it is a"true statement" in Panama, unlike in the U. S., you are not protected by being "right", you simply cannot publish negative things about a person or business here.  "

A) Young man eats at restaurant

B) Young man becomes violently ill

C)  Cause cannot be determined via scientific method

D) Young man is ill-advised to post *any* hypothesis towards public safety.

Point well taken. Even though one of my Panama City lawyers told me that being "right" was enough to defend against a slander, I think - from what I have heard of the judicial system here - a judge or court will decide any which way they might ( shall we say ) be predisposed to decide. And how could one prove such an allegation, if it were in fact strictly an allegation ? Why should a sub-citizen ( in the eyes of the courts ) "play with fire" for zero reward ? Excellent advice, thank you.