Venezuelans Stuck at the Border

[Hil]

9 hours ago, Penny said:

Judy and John are correct. When you have a temporary visa waiting for your permanent visa, you need to buy a multiple entry visa for $100 from immigration. This is just a large stamp in your passport which allows you to exit and enter the country.

It's $50 and only good for six months now. It used to be good for a year. I used one until  my final garnet was obtained. David migracion has the temp 6 month visas.

[Querencia]

10 hours ago, Keith Woolford said:

According to TVN this morning, the number of people checking out of Panama at Paso Canoas has decreased.

http://www.tvn-2.com/nacionales/provincias/Baja-extranjeros-Panama-Paso-Canoa_0_4706529396.html

No point checking out if you can't check back in. And maybe Costa Rica will refuse entry for certain people soon. Somehow I don't see Venezuelan's planning on returning to their country of origin anytime soon. Will Venezuelan's become refugees in Panama?

[Bonnie]

5 hours ago, Bonnie said:

Gareth is the son of Steve and Michelle Walker. His sister and a friend are visiting from New Zealand and wanted to see Costa Rica. Although having been here only two weeks and having with them their return tickets to New Zealand, they are being refused reentry to Panama. I spoke with Gareth this morning and advised him to contact the British Embassy and/or the British warden in Boquete.

Just to be clear, Steve, Michelle, the daughter, and the daughter's friend all were on the trip and all were refused reentry. 

[JimAndNena]

22 minutes ago, Bonnie said:

Just to be clear, Steve, Michelle, the daughter, and the daughter's friend all were on the trip and all were refused reentry. 

Now I'm really confused. The Walkers own property, are working in Boquete, and are doing this on a tourist visa? How is that even possible?  If they have work permits, one would assume that would be sufficient to return to Panama. Something is missing.

[MarieElaine]

If the relatives are visiting from New Zealand and the parents have Pensionado/Friendly Nations status, they just need to walk through one the stores and go home.  Have you heard of any Americans/Canadians that have been refused?

[Moderator_02]

Moderator preface: Steven Walker has continued to provide emails to the CL staff, and with his request and permission more information about their situation is being published. What follows are extracts with date-time stamps from various emails in both directions between Steven and the CL staff.
 

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Quote

On 3/9/2017 7:23 PM, steven walker wrote:

Thanks for the help message .We have a 5day visa in Costa Rican hence the run to Nicaragua.at present we have made it to San Jose and tomorrow morning at 4 am we head to Managua.the Panamanian immigration officer was well aware that if he took us to the CR immigration they have to give us 5 days only.we had an elderly US citizen from bocas returned to CR as well with us.The CR immigration officer said that they don't know what is happening in Panama but it's crazy.

We run the monkey rescue centre in Chorcha. the other thing which was really bad was my daughter Rebecca and her friend we left at the border as we could not not talk to them .The officer got a police man and threatened us and marched us into Costa Rican.so my daughter who is on holiday until next week had to drive a left hand drive car back to David  with her friend .We weren't allowed even to show her how the car worked.I pray they made it .I have not heard anything.

Beware that they don't care if you own property .Have pets or anything .They just behaved like Gestapo.We could not explain or talk to them.I have a friend in Panama city who is the head of Anam and they refused to talk to him.just told us to go to Costa Rican.

This is not how I expect to be treated here in Panama after investing alot of money .Employing people and spending alot each month to live here.plus we look after Panamanian wildlife for the government for free.

 

Quote

On 3/10/2017 5:11 AM, Support at Chiriqui Life wrote:

Steven,

Marcelyn and I are hoping this all gets resolved quickly. However, we suspect that your mindset about Panama as a desirable place in which to reside, to invest in, or to visit has been irreparably and permanently damaged -- and understandably so.

Can you be more specific what help is needed with the animals, your property, your family/friends, etc.?

To help others understand this incident, would you mind posting more on CL, or perhaps give us permission to post extracts from below?

Bud

 

Quote

On 3/10/2017 6:46 AM, steven walker wrote:

Hi Bud.yes our feelings about the place have definitely been altered.I have seen this before in other countries and it starts slowly.you can use what ever you like.i have nothing to hide. My son is at the property in Chitchat and has 8 monkeys to care for .It's going to be very tough for him.if you contact him he can tell you what help he needs.

My daughter and her friend made it back alright thank God.that was my biggest concern.

i don't understand why they never explained what solution we could come to,maybe give us a short term visa so we could sort things out.but just forcing us out and refusing to communicate was incredible.what amazes me is that we contribute to the economy while we are here.attitudes have changed.so have ours.

Steven

 

Quote

On 3/10/2017 6:48 AM, steven walker wrote:

Sorry I didn't give Gareth's number 62757085.

 

This morning, Marcelyn and I talked with Gareth by telephone. It was a conversation that started out a bit cool (perhaps based more on stress?), but only because Gareth had no idea who we were. Once he understood who we are and what we are doing, he was warm and engaging. Here is what we learned from that approximately five minute conversation.

The Walker family operates and maintains an animal rescue facility that is located on the "flattop mountain with the waterfalls". If you ever travel on the InterAmerican Highway from David to Santiago you will see that flat mountaintop on your left. It is unmistakable. They have eight (8) monkeys. The monkeys need almost continuous oversight. The monkeys can be alone for about one to two hours, but then need someone to help oversee their socialization because that is how monkeys live -- very tribal. The monkeys eat fruits and vegetables. They especially need lactose free soy milk. Etc. Access to the rescue facility is only by way of four-wheel drive vehicle, using an exit off of the InterAmerican Highway going toward the north.

This animal rescue facility is an expensive undertaking, which is currently underwritten from the Walker family resources. Gareth did NOT request donations, but when we brought up the subject he paused for a moment and said that donations of food, support services (and even money) would definitely be appreciated. The oversight is apparently a very time intensive procedure.

We then asked how anyone who wishes to help should contact him. Gareth is the son, and his cell number is 6275-7085, and his email is garethw@fastmail.fm. If anyone reading this wishes to help with the monkey rescue facility, please contact Gareth by telephone or email. And to repeat, Steven Walker is the father, and his email is rooikop@fastmail.fm.

If anyone has additional information about this situation, we sincerely request that you post updates here for everyone to see.

Marcelyn and Bud
Owners and Administrators of Chiriqui.Life

[Penny]

I know Steven and Michelle but don't know what kind of visa they have. I think knowing this information might explain a lot about this situation.

[Bonnie]

16 hours ago, Bonnie said:

Just to be clear, Steve, Michelle, the daughter, and the daughter's friend all were on the trip and all were refused reentry. 

I'm glad to heat that the daughter and her friend were allowed reentry. That was not clear from earlier posts.

[TwoSailors]

23 minutes ago, Penny said:

I know Steven and Michelle but don't know what kind of visa they have. I think knowing this information might explain a lot about this situation.

Very good point. A lot of vague and missing information. Who knows of any other folks  ( first hand ) from Chiriqui that are not being allowed back into Panama?

Seems this is getting a little blown out of proportion.

[Penny]

I just read an old post on Ning written by Steve Walker. Steve said he had been doing the border crossing every 90 days for 10 years to reset his tourist visa and drivers license. It seems to me that this is the perfect example of what Panama is trying to prevent.

[Bonnie]

Steve and Michelle left several years ago in large part because they were unable to qualify for any visa available at that time. I remember that they spent a lot of time and money pursuing a permanent visa of some type. When they returned in 2016 (Steve in the summer, Michelle in the fall) they planned to apply for, I think, a Friendly Nations visa. I assume they had not yet done so. But it should be understood that they never have willingly lived here on a tourist visa but did so to preserve their property and care for the monkeys.

I recognize that this does not explain why they chose to risk going to Costa Rica at this time. I believe they were aware of the new decree.

[Penny]

What a screwed up mess. I feel horrible for them.

About six months ago there were a lot of signs that this was coming. At that time I urged my neighbor (and tenant) to apply for her pensionado visa. Luckily she followed the advise and now has her temporary card.

[SP87]

Are they turning people away at the airports too? 

[Doug Tyler]

Steven has a GO FUND ME site. http://www.gofundme.com/vznsr2t . I presume it's still active. I visited them in Chorcha a couple of weeks ago and they were working hard to restore the sanctuary. He and Michelle were going to Costa Rica to get some specialty plants for some people and a job he was working on in Portrerillos. They really deserve help as they have had extreme duress trying to create something wonderful at the Howler Monkey Hideaway.

Edited March 10, 2017 by Doug Tyler
added data

[Roger B]

On 3/9/2017 at 11:37 AM, Rooikop said:

we can't get back now .so we have five days in Costa Rica. well done Panama. good way to encourage investors.

Sorry for sounding a little bit rude with my reply but investors will be well advised by their lawyers and will do the things as it should be and wont be relying on "practices" that are not illegal but is a loophole in the law.  

I have given advise to several US companies and individuals who wanted to invest in some business in Panama.... and they were well prepared and well informed about doing the things right.   It is the best way to do the things.

[Roger B]

Many year ago, in the old BN, when Lee Zeltzer managed it there were several threads and discussions about border hoping and people who where taking this risk to this.   Lee and other people at BN gave good advices of how to do things right.  There were heated debates about this issue and the advice was always.  Do what it is right.

I do remember that the first two waves of immigrants that arrived Boquete and Chiriqui areas did everything as was stated and required.  They processed their visas, got their ID, others got their residency and were given an E-Cedula.  Something happened that the other waves of people coming to Boquete and Chiriqui started to skip some process and looking for shortcuts that the loophole in the law was giving them.   

A lot of people complained about the cost of the visas and some inmoral and bad lawyers that scam the money of some people and didnt do their job in getting all the stuff done in time, at a normal cost and less traumatic.  Other people gave testimonials of the lawyers they used that they recommended because they did a good job and did all the paperwork correctly, in very short time and at a reasonable cost.  This lead to the creation of a list of attorneys or lawyers that were recommended by those expats that got their immigration status done.  I do remember that everytime a person asked for an immigration lawyer references at least 4 to 5 names were repeatedly given.  So that means that a person thinking seriously in living in Panama could have this done with the help of those lawyers that were recommended by a large number of expat that used their services and were totally satisfied.

Border hoping is not "illegal"  but it is not legal also.  It is a black hole in the law for tourist that some immigrants are taking advantage.   Thanks to the extensive and exagerated use of this shortcut by expats from Venezuela and Colombia this loophole in the law came into the direct attention of the immigration authorities and for sure they will legislated on that.  

I know a lot of expats of the first two generations that have the legal immigration status on rule that are now in peace and happy seeing this situation without fear.  They did it right.

 I got a slogan I told my family, friends and colleagues. If you are going to do something... do it the right way from the beggining and dont take any shortcut or skip things. It will save you from problems in the future.  Nothing is more important than peace of mind.

[Rooikop]

I don't want to live here and I was booked out on the 1st of May.

[Twin Wolf Technology Group]

I have to take exception to the thought that if people would just do it right from the beginning they would not have this problem.   I have attempted to do it right from the beginning.   I have fought the battle for more than 5 years to get a resident visa because I wanted to do it right.   

Everyone has a different experience with lawyers and the immigration system, let me share a bit of mine.

I came to Panama 8 years ago with a company that invested more than $300,000 into Panama.   The law firm we chose came recommended by others in the same type of business. The lawyers at the time told us that several of us would then automatically qualify for permanent visas due to our investment.  Despite 2 years of promises and constant badgering, the resident visas never materialized.  When the business finally closed and returned to the US, I was left to battle getting a resident visa on my own.

The corruption among lawyers in Panama is rampant and there is no legal way to hold them accountable for their actions.   

My second attempt to get a resident visa ended shortly after it began and while it resulted in a loss of money, it was certainly less of a loss than the previous experience.  It seems that the man representing himself as a lawyer was in fact not a lawyer but his girlfriend was a lawyer and he was forging the documents in her name.   Again, no way to hold him accountable without throwing money into a system that cranks out lawyers like raindrops in October and never punishes them.

The third attempt was here in Boquete.  I signed on with lawyer that came recommended by many on Ning and other places.  It is always best to get recommendations but in each case those recommendations meant nothing.  Once again I ended up with a dishonest lawyer.  His office in San Francisco plaza closed shortly after I paid him and he refused most phone calls.  I continued to badger him for 2 years, tracking him down as he changed locations and refused my calls.   I heard every excuse in the book including "his car was broken into and they stole my final paperwork".  Multiple trips to Immigration were needed because his paperwork was rejected several times.  

Ultimately I triumphed but at a cost far exceeding anything reasonable and with 5+ years of border hopping to continue the battle..  Since I own a car, I was forced to hop every 90 days instead of the 180, just to keep my driver’s license valid.  I can understand that Panama is trying to prevent abuses but how is an honest person supposed to navigate the sewer of lawyers and endless hurdles?  Even if you get lucky and find the one honest lawyer in all of Panama, how is someone supposed to do it in the 90 days without multiple trips out of the country given the process take a year minimum?

Despite my long and finally successful battle, I am now faced with this issue again.   I married a wonderful Colombian woman in January and of course she is a tourist since we have only been married a couple of months.  We were married in Colombia and Panama could care less.   For them, she is a tourist who has crossed the border multiple times in the last year (of course she did, we were dating!)   We talked about where to live and she agreed to move to Panama.    

We have already purchased a flight back to Colombia at the start of April.   The purpose of the trip is for me to get a spousal visa for Colombia (I want to be legal) and for her to apply for a tourist visa so she can visit my family in the US for Christmas.  We were also going to get our marriage certificate and her paperwork apostilled so she could start her Panama visa process.   It now appears she will not be permitted to come back to Panama due to this short-sighted and ill-considered decree.    We have 21 days to get her a visa or some sort of paperwork that permits her to return to live with her new husband.   Anyone living here knows, Panama doesn’t do anything quick - other than change the rules and enforcement.    

It is looking like our best option is to raise the white flag of surrender.  Colombia is welcoming us with open arms.  My resident visa in Colombia is a simple one day process – not a five year battle with unaccountable lawyers.   Maybe Panama's next government can work on cleaning up its lawyers and legal system so the rules don't change at the gust of every breeze in March.

My point is that while it is easy for some to say “do it the right way from the beginning…  It will save you from problems in the future”, the reality in Panama is quite different.   While those who have their visas may rest easy now, as I was doing, Panama is just as likely to change the rules with a decree and take away your peace of mind.   My experience.

[Penny]

If we lose Dan Porter to Colombia because of this SNAFU, we will have lost a valuable member of our community.

[Rooikop]

On 08/03/2017 at 9:13 AM, Dave and Leiann Scee said:

We just crossed the border to renew our visa's. We WERE asked for our proof of airline return tickets. It seems as though Panama is headed were Equador is in relation to expat retiries. In Equador (we were there recently for two months) you get 90 days in a year (total). No border hopping. You can get another 90 day extension but it is not cheap and still retires the FBI background paper work along with all the rest of the paperwork. Or you can get the one year renewable which will cost when all is said and done about 2k per person. I think these folks are shooting them selves in the foot as many like us do not want to or have not yet decided if we want to stay in a paticular country indefinantly. Mexico was much easier. When we were living northern Costa Rica we talked to many expats that owned property and were chosing to sell (lot's of discount condo's in Coco beach) and leave the country due to these new laws as well as increasing taxation in Costa Rica. We will be leaving and if we ever decide to come back this will have to be a consideration. We are thinking Europe. This is going to cost Panama lot's. Just saying

Wise move.

[Keith Woolford]

On 3/11/2017 at 0:48 AM, Twin Wolf Technology Group said:

The third attempt was here in Boquete.  I signed on with lawyer that came recommended by many on Ning and other places.  It is always best to get recommendations but in each case those recommendations meant nothing.  Once again I ended up with a dishonest lawyer.  His office in San Francisco plaza closed shortly after I paid him and he refused most phone calls.  I continued to badger him for 2 years, tracking him down as he changed locations and refused my calls.   I heard every excuse in the book including "his car was broken into and they stole my final paperwork".  Multiple trips to Immigration were needed because his paperwork was rejected several times. 

this Tweet caught my eye yesterday.

[Bonnie]

The loss of both Dan and the Walkers would be a substantial loss to the community. I'm holding out hope that Panama will rectify this situation asap. Surely by now the powers that be have recognized how short-sighted and peremptory the issuance of this decree was.

[SP87]

While I believe Panama has the right to do what they wish with their country. I also find it very sad at the abruptness at which they are doing it. I honestly don't know how those who only had/have a week or so left on their tourist visa are/were managing.

I am about to begin the process for residency however I am worried that by the time I get all my documents together my tourist stamp will expire. Since I would be trying to get my criminal background check and other things from home while here because I'm in fear if I leave to go back to Canada to get them, they will refuse me entry when I get back. Which only leaves me the option to obtain those items while being here which of course adds weeks to the process. 

I feel it's almost impossible now to legalize your status unless you already had all your documents here waiting to go. 

[Penny]

In addition to incompetent and dishonest lawyers, there is also the problem that many older people no longer have fingerprints that can be taken with the old ink roller method. I even know some folks who have made multiple attempts at digital fingerprints only to have that method also not work.

I know two of the attorneys that Twin Wolf entrusted to get him resident status and I can certify that they were both incompetent.

It is true that this change seemed to be abrupt to many. However, those who follow the local news, the forums, and the yahoo groups have known for quite a while that Panama was about to tighten up the border hopping loophole.

[Roger B]

3 hours ago, Rooikop said:

Wise move.

Sure.  It is the best they can do.  Thing down here are not good and it will take some time to clean this stuff and get people doing the right way.  So, why have this kind of problem in a Thirld World Country with corrupt government officials and lousy changing laws.