Jubilado Discounts at Restaurants - Descuento de Jubilados en Restaurantes

[Keith Woolford]

Where are you folks getting all these English language regulations?

The law is published in Spanish. Anything else is just someone's interpretation.

Edited March 3, 2017 by Keith Woolford

[Keith Woolford]

I thought the rant was about restaurants cheating on the law, btw, not patrons.

[Panama Bill]

Keith, on the previous page, on one of my replies, you will find that I downloaded two files, one in PDF format which is Law 6 in Spanish as published by ACODECO, and the other is a translation of the entire law into English. You only need to click on the hyperlink to be able to downloaded into your computer. Also, both can be obtained on the Internet. And, if you can read Spanish, you can compare both versions and you'll see that the English translation is accurate.

[Keith Woolford]

17 minutes ago, Panama Bill said:

Keith, on the previous page, on one of my replies, you will find that I downloaded two files, one in PDF format which is Law 6 in Spanish as published by ACODECO, and the other is a translation of the entire law into English. You only need to click on the hyperlink to be able to downloaded into your computer. Also, both can be obtained on the Internet. And, if you can read Spanish, you can compare both versions and you'll see that the English translation is accurate.

thanks

[MarieElaine]

It states in the original post that "Fondas" do not have to honor the Jubilado providing they do not serve alcohol and have only 6 or less tables so do not ask for it at these low cost establishments.  Secondly, if I owned a restaurant, I would enter the gross sale and the discount as a cost of sale just to keep track.  A business owner can never have too many analysis'.  

PS:  Now I know a Spanish curse word proving you are never too old to curse in any language.  LOL

Edited March 3, 2017 by MarieElaine

[Bud]

Marcelyn and I patronized an upscale, local Boquete restaurant in April 2016, a bit short of a year ago. I am not naming that restaurant here, but it is one that we would label as a "high end gringo style" restaurant, with pretty good food and service, but disdain for the letter of the law regarding jubilado discounts. Note that we have a personal policy of not requesting a jubilado discount when the total cost per person is less than $10.00, nor when it is a tipico, nor when we feel that the value received for the price paid is adequate. While this instance was a good meal and with good service, the price was quite high, which admittedly is a subjective assessment on our part.

And so, last April off to ACODECO in David we go. That denuncia was filed in April 2016. We learned that the ACODECO investigation began in September 2016. And then last Friday (March 24^th) we were summoned for the final report. The result was a denial of our claim.

Without going into a lot of the details here, the essence of the comments by the representative of the restaurant was that they did not remember the incident and that they have many satisfied customers. They also claimed that since we had paid with a credit card that there was no way to trace back to the specific transaction (which doesn't make any sense to me since we included copies of the receipt along with the credit card charge in the filing of the denuncia).

It appears that we have five days from last Friday to appeal this decision. We are going to let this specific incident go. Should we file another denuncia against another restaurant -- and hopefully that will not be necessary -- then we are going to be more meticulous in documenting the transaction with the business that denies the jubilado discount.

I cannot prove it, but methinks part of the paperwork that we submitted somehow got "lost" in the paperwork caverns of the bureaucracy.

Not bitter, but again disappointed that the ACODECO complaint system doesn't seem to work, or perhaps is stacked in favor of the business.

[TwoSailors]

Very interesting. We can feel your disappointment. You have every right to be, especially since you did all that was asked of you.

It's is very similar to the whole mess with border hopping and Visa announcements. No clear, precise, consistent, explanation of the rules/laws.

But you gave it a shot, and I think we can all figure out which restaurant this is.  The comments by the restaurant representative gives clear indication that they don't care.

Not giving the Jubilado discount and having that attitude should be a warning to folks to stop going to this restaurant.

Marcelyn and Bud....Thanks for trying!

[Bonnie]

I have had so many instances of paperwork being lost here--by the government, by banks, by insurance companies--that I too suspect that your receipts were lost.

[Brundageba]

Happens everywhere. A friend I have had for decades is a citizen of Kenya.  She has a USA green card.  She applied for USA citizenship and was one hop from done and the government lost all her paper work....and denied it.  She began process with all the cost all over again.  She is today a US citizen.

[Bud]

We've had some inquiries about how ACODECO responded to our denuncia, and for more details about what the restaurant said. Regarding request #1, ACODECO called to make an appointment for us to come to their office in David to receive the final report, which was a two page, legal size typed (and stamped) "resolution" that I had to sign for. Regarding request #2, I have extracted and redacted a section of the two page "resolution" that was delivered to us.

The staff at ACODECO was friendly and professional, but absent smiles and not very talkative. It was late on a Friday afternoon, however, and I suspect they were just ready to shut down.

 

 

 Here is the extracted text in Spanish:

Quote

Acudió el representante de XXXXX, quíen presentó sus descargos, donde se señala entre otras cosas lo siguiente:

''Al ser un hecho supuestamente ocurrido hace 7 meses y al ser un establecimiento con gran afluencia de clientela, no recordamos al senor en cuestión quien únicamente presentó un voucher de tarjeta de credito como prueba con los voucher de tarjeta de credito no se ve reflejado nunca el descuento, esto sale reflejado en el recibo fiscal que entregamos a los cl ientes ... " (sic foja 8)

 

And here is an automated translation:

Quote

The representative of XXXXX came, who presented their releases, where it was indicated, among other things, the following:

"As it is a fact supposed to have happened 7 months ago and since it is an establishment with a great influx of customers, we do not remember the man in question who only presented a credit card voucher as proof with the credit card voucher is not reflected never the discount, this is reflected in the tax receipt we deliver to customers ... " (sic leaf 8)

 

[Pat]

If restaurant owners don't allow Jubilado discount, then what? Sounds like ACODECO is not effective in resolving this problem (slow to investigate a denuncia,   settles for poor excuses from restaurant owners, etc.)

I suspect as more people gain residency there will be more denuncias filed against restaurant owners.

Maybe the primitive punishment used by the indigenous is a solution?

[Bonnie]

Bud, did the credit card receipt in fact itemize charges? If not, I think ACODECO's point is well-taken as they would have no way of knowing whether the charge included the discount or not.

[Bud]

2 hours ago, Bonnie said:

Bud, did the credit card receipt in fact itemize charges? If not, I think ACODECO's point is well-taken as they would have no way of knowing whether the charge included the discount or not.

The credit card bill is apparently the only documentation that survived the internal gauntlet within ACODECO. Without the actual factura for goods and services purchased, then the resulting ACODECO position is the only reasonable position to be taken.

Read the next to the last paragraph of my original posting on this incident. That says it all, to wit:

On 3/26/2017 at 2:32 PM, Bud said:

I cannot prove it, but methinks part of the paperwork that we submitted somehow got "lost" in the paperwork caverns of the bureaucracy.

Without the actual factura then there is no legitimate case.

[Pat]

What this teaches me is to be prepared when I go to an "upscale gringo" restaurant especially here in Boquete. I'll have a copy of the law (thanks to Panama Bill for this information), a camera, voice recording machine, and my guest will be my attorney.

Should be interesting. The law is the law.

[Keith Woolford]

6 minutes ago, Pat said:

The law is the law.

Sure hope you or your attorney never parks improperly, speeds, talks on the phone while driving, fails to signal when required, or spits on the sidewalk.

After all, the law is the law.

[Pat]

Not to worry.  Never guilty of any of the items you mentioned.

After all, the law is the law.

[Bonnie]

11 hours ago, Bud said:

The credit card bill is apparently the only documentation that survived the internal gauntlet within ACODECO. Without the actual factura for goods and services purchased, then the resulting ACODECO position is the only reasonable position to be taken.

Read the next to the last paragraph of my original posting on this incident. That says it all, to wit:

Without the actual factura then there is no legitimate case.

Sorry, Bud. I overlooked this in your original post.

Edited March 28, 2017 by Bonnie

[JimAndNena]

I have reached the age (and appearance) where I am given the discount without asking for it.  The restaurant will ALWAYS provide a receipt showing the discount, a copy of which is sent to the government at tax time.  The government approved (DGi) cash registers are supposed to track sales for tax purposes.  I assume those registers are in use?

jim

[Dottie Atwater]

On 3/26/2017 at 2:32 PM, Bud said:

... but again disappointed that the ACODECO complaint system doesn't seem to work, or perhaps is stacked in favor of the business.

ACODECO is worthless. I filed a denuncia against a hotel in Santa Fe in July of 2014 for refusal to give the jubilado discount. I received a resolution from ACODECO in December of 2014, stating that I was to be refunded $138.38 from Coffee Mountain Inn and they were to be fined in the amount of $200. Have I ever received my refund? Nope, after numerous time-consuming visits to ACODECO, each time with them saying they would call me, I finally gave up. That leads me to believe that Coffee Mountain Inn was never fined either.

[Bonnie]

I think I have a different perspective on this than most everyone else does. When the law was adopted, it was envisioned to help elderly Panamanians at a time when there were mainly tipico restaurants. The cost of food and other overhead at tipicos is not as high as it is at fancier restaurants that offer a wider variety of food and a more upscale environment. As most restaurants operate on slim margins particularly in the beginning before they build up a clientele, many go out of business, as we have seen. I would rather forgo the discount and keep the restaurants in business. Secondly, I think it's unbecoming for those of us who by Panamanian standards have so much to be bickering over a few dollars. If a restaurant offers the jubilado discount, I take it. But I never make an issue of it. It may be the law, but the law was not intended for expats, and we look like small, greedy people when we insist on the restaurant discount of a few dollars or less. I feel the same about small B&Bs and similar mom and pop establishments.

I see this kind of discount issue as being wholly different from the plane and hotel discounts that involve real money and wealthy corporations.

 

Edited March 28, 2017 by Bonnie
typo

[Roger B]

1 hour ago, JimAndNena said:

I have reached the age (and appearance) where I am given the discount without asking for it.  The restaurant will ALWAYS provide a receipt showing the discount, a copy of which is sent to the government at tax time.  The government approved (DGi) cash registers are supposed to track sales for tax purposes.  I assume those registers are in use?

jim

They should be... or the business could get into trouble with the DGI (our IRS)

[Keith Woolford]

1 hour ago, Bonnie said:

If a restaurant offers the jubilado discount, I take it. But I never make an issue of it. It may be the law, but the law was not intended for expats, and we look like small, greedy people when we insist on the restaurant discount of a few dollars or less. I feel the same about small B&Bs and similar mom and pop establishments.

I see this kind of discount issue as being wholly different from the plane and hotel discounts that involve real money and wealthy corporations.

I agree wholeheartedly, Bonnie.

There was a very good interview with the spokesman of the Tribuna de Consumidor about Jubilado discounts and benefits on Telemetro last week. I did not post the video because it was in Spanish but here it is.

http://www.telemetro.com/nacionales/tribuna_del_consumidor/Tribuna-Consumidor-beneficios-jubilados-pensionados_3_1008529197.html

By the way, the spokesman clearly stated that if a 'special' is being offered, the Jubilado has the option of the 'special' at it's promotional price, or a discount on a regular menu item, but not a discount on the 'special'.

He also mentioned the inclusion of extranjeros who are residents.

Edited March 28, 2017 by Keith Woolford

[MarieElaine]

While I agree that these discounts were probably intended to help those citizens whose income is less than adequate, I also believe that the discounts are one of the reasons retirees come here.  Offering benefits to the elderly regardless of nationality is one of the lures I am sure the Panamanian government uses to get us to move here in the first place.

[Keith Woolford]

3 minutes ago, MarieElaine said:

Offering benefits to the elderly regardless of nationality is one of the lures I am sure the Panamanian government uses to get us to move here in the first place.

Many promoters tout Jubilado discounts as an incentive for people to retire here but I have never seen anything like that published by the government of Panama.

[Roger B]

1 minute ago, Keith Woolford said:

Many promoters tout Jubilado discounts as an incentive for people to retire here but I have never seen anything like that published by the government of Panama.

 

Right.  So many promoters uses it as an incentive.... but in the law it is clearly stated that these benefits will cover any person in Panama that is panamanian citizen and legal residents.  That includes foreigners living here with legal residence.